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Podcasts/Lex Fridman Podcast/Keen, Steve

Keen, Steve

heterodox economist, author of Debunking Economics and The New Economics: A Manifesto, creator of the Minsky system-dynamics modeling software

Steve Keen: Marxism, Capitalism, and Economics

Lex Fridman Podcast · Jul 17, 2022

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Core ideas

Keen opens by arguing that economics has "the right name and the wrong soul": in his view its proper subject is how human civilization elevates itself above the energy and resource baseline of the planet (a framing he credits to atmospheric physicist Tim Garrett), and he holds that mainstream economics, by ignoring this, has "helped bring about the feasible termination of human civilization." He argues economists use the wrong mathematics — discrete difference equations borrowed for individual-level processes, rather than the differential equations and stability analysis appropriate to modeling an aggregate, dynamic, far-from-equilibrium system like the economy — and that this reflects a deeper assumption, which he rejects, that capitalist economies gravitate toward stable equilibrium.

He walks through a history of value theory across schools of economic thought: the physiocrats (value originates in land/the sun, manufacturing is "sterile"); Adam Smith and the classical school (value comes from labor, objectively measured by effort); Marx's critique of capitalism, which inherited the classical labor theory of value; the neoclassical school's subjective, marginal-utility-based response, which Keen argues wrongly treats money as irrelevant ("money illusion") and treats capitalism as an equilibrium system; Keynes's emphasis on fundamental uncertainty as the driver of investment volatility; Schumpeter's vision of entrepreneurship and bank-created money as the source of capitalism's disequilibrium dynamism, which Keen considers the closest of the classical schools to how capitalism actually behaves; and Austrian economics, which he credits for recognizing disturbance from equilibrium but criticizes (with the partial exception of Schumpeter) for still assuming an underlying tendency back toward it and for a "hard money" view that neglects credit creation.

Keen regards Marx as "probably the most brilliant mind in the history of economics," tracing in detail (via his own biographical account of studying Marx from his 1844 manuscripts through Capital) how Marx's dialectical framework — a "foreground" (a thing's exchange value) in tension with a "background" (its use value) — evolved after Marx reread Hegel in 1857, leading Marx to a footnote insight (in the Grundrisse) that a commodity's use value can exceed its exchange value, which is how Marx explained the extraction of surplus value from labor (paid a subsistence wage while producing more value than that wage in working hours). Keen argues Marx failed to apply this same insight consistently to machinery — insisting machines could only ever return their own cost, never more — a move Keen calls a direct contradiction of Marx's own logic, and one that undermined Marx's basis for predicting a "tendency for the rate of profit to fall" and, with it, Marx's argument that socialist revolution was economically inevitable rather than merely, in Keen's reading, a preferred utopian outcome.

On the historical fate of Soviet-style socialism, Keen leans on economist János Kornai's analysis: centrally planned economies are "resource constrained" (all available capacity gets fully committed, discouraging innovation and favoring repeated production of existing designs — he illustrates this with an anecdote about a decades-unchanged Soviet motorcycle) whereas capitalist economies are "demand constrained" (firms build deliberate excess capacity and compete via innovation), which he argues is the deeper reason Soviet-style economies persistently underproduced consumer variety and, in his account, is what made repression a practical necessity for controlling a population denied that variety. He extends this into a discussion of the Bolshevik-versus-Menshevik split (Mensheviks holding, per Marx's own original vision centered on advanced economies like England, that Russia needed a capitalist phase first) and offers a personal, comparatively favorable characterization of contemporary China as combining centralized political control with genuine market-driven economic dynamism and technically competent, engineer-led infrastructure planning — while explicitly flagging concerns about censorship, a personality cult around Xi Jinping, and the risks of local officials over-complying with central directives (illustrated with an anecdote from a 1981 visit).

Turning to his own theoretical contribution, Keen describes building on Richard Goodwin's 1967 predator-prey (Lotka-Volterra-style) mathematical model of Marx's cyclical profit-wage dynamics, adding private debt and banking as a third variable, which produced chaotic dynamics via the same "period-doubling route to chaos" seen in fluid turbulence. He recounts realizing in the mid-2000s, based on this model and rising private debt data, that a major financial crisis was likely — a call he says he made publicly in Australia before 2008 — and argues (citing the Bank of England's own 2014 statement) that mainstream ("loanable funds") economics is wrong to treat bank credit as economically neutral, since credit is, in his view, a volatile and causally important component of aggregate demand; he cites the credit collapse from +16% to -5% of GDP between 2006 and 2009 as central to the crisis, and invokes Irving Fisher's "debt deflation" theory (the paradox that "the more debtors pay, the more they owe" once falling prices amplify real debt burdens) as the central danger of over-leveraged capitalism. He argues private debt (currently, he says, around 170% of U.S. GDP, versus a "moderate" 30-70% he'd favor) should be treated as a policy target alongside inflation and unemployment, and separately defends a modern-monetary-theory-style view that government deficits are "a feature, not a bug" of a well-functioning fiat economy, arguing that austerity (which he ties to the causes of the Great Depression) disproportionately harms the poor.

On climate change, Keen argues forcefully that mainstream economic models radically understate the risk — citing William Nordhaus's assumption that most economic activity occurs indoors and is thus insulated from climate effects, and a 2016 paper by Richard Toll claiming the loss of the Gulf Stream (AMOC) would raise global GDP, which Keen calls "the worst work I've read in 50 years" for omitting precipitation effects on agriculture entirely. He argues the stability of the last ~12,000 years of climate (identified with the peak of a long orbital cycle) is what enabled sedentary civilization and food production, and that current warming, driven far faster than natural cycles, risks catastrophic disruption to wheat, corn, and rice production; he describes reaching a period of depression after encountering the Nordhaus/Toll-style economic literature, relating that his wife's more accepting, present-focused response helped him past it. He also voices concern that climate-driven resource pressure could contribute to geopolitical conflict and even nuclear risk, while noting he has become "a little more cautious" generally about the jump from scientific consensus to specific public-policy prescriptions, drawing an explicit parallel to overconfidence he observed in pandemic-era public health messaging.

He closes on human nature, quoting his own "individually intelligent, collectively stupid" formulation (arguing shared belief is both humanity's great creative catalyst and its capacity for collective self-deception and violence), voices measured optimism about AI development provided it's approached carefully (speculating, following ideas from Ernest Becker's The Denial of Death, that machine consciousness might require an analog of mortality-awareness to develop at all), argues capitalism could function more sustainably in space than on Earth (since waste could be discharged into the sun), and offers career advice discouraging a conventional economics degree in favor of studying systems dynamics and engineering — framing his own unconventional, financially chaotic career path as something he'd choose again despite its costs.

Excerpts

On why he thinks Marx's application of his own value theory to machinery was a self-contradiction:

“What Marx argued and you read this in Capital... he said that no matter how useful a machine is, whether it has 100 hours to make or cost 150, it cannot under any circumstances add more to production than 150... but that contradicts his previous logic... intelligent machines would completely screw Marx up.”

On why he believes mainstream economic models of climate change are dangerously flawed:

“The GCMs the scientists produce... include precipitation as well as temperature. The IAMs that the economists produce... do not include precipitation... they assume that if temperature improves by moving towards a temperature which is better for producing agriculture, then so will precipitation. Now that's completely wrong... it's so bad it should never have been published.”

On why he sees private debt, not inflation, as capitalism's central danger:

“The biggest danger in capitalism is a debt deflation, far more dangerous than inflation, and the cause of debt deflation is too much lending, too much bank lending, too much private money creation... we have to regard the level of private debt as a target of economic policy just as much as the rate of inflation or the rate of unemployment.”