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Podcasts/Lex Fridman Podcast/Murray, Douglas

Murray, Douglas

author of The War on the West, The Madness of Crowds, and On Democracies and Death Cults

Douglas Murray: Putin, Zelenskyy, Trump, Israel, Netanyahu, Hamas & Gaza

Lex Fridman Podcast · Mar 30, 2025

▶ Watch on YouTube

Core ideas

Murray grounds his analysis of both the Ukraine and Israel-Gaza conflicts in direct, repeated frontline reporting — he was embedded with Ukrainian forces retaking Kherson in 2022 and was in a Ukrainian dugout watching the Trump-Zelensky Oval Office blowup unfold in real time in 2025, and has interviewed dozens of October 7th survivors, hostage families, and Israeli soldiers for his book. On the Trump-Zelensky meeting, he calls it "a meeting that shouldn't have happened," too early given the unresolved minerals deal, and faults the reporter's disrespectful question about Zelensky's outfit — arguing a person coming from "the realm of war" deserves a baseline of respect from those in "the realm of peace," comparing it to imagining a journalist provoking Putin about cosmetic surgery. He and Lex agree the episode reflects a broader American tendency to flatten complex geopolitics into tribal shorthand (Ukraine flags in bios as fashion-coded loyalty signaling) and note that skilled leaders like Modi manage to maintain warm relations with Putin, Zelensky, Trump, Biden, and Obama simultaneously — a diplomatic skill Zelensky, hampered by exhaustion and imperfect English, failed to deploy in that meeting.

On Putin, Murray's core indictment is dictatorial repression at home (opposition eliminated, rigged elections), extraterritorial assassination using weapons of mass destruction against UK civilians (polonium, Novichok), and a stated ambition — reconstitution of the former Soviet sphere — evidenced by the 2008 Georgia invasion predating any NATO-related Ukraine grievance. He's skeptical of "realist" framings (Mearsheimer) that treat Russian sphere-of-influence claims as sufficient explanation, arguing realists must still decide how much license a "rapacious regime" gets under that framework, and that his Baltic and Georgian friends' fear of Russia is not performative. He rejects the idea that economic interdependence reliably prevents war, citing Norman Angell's discredited pre-WWI thesis that European economic integration made war unthinkable, and warns that proposed "peace" mechanisms like American mineral-deal buffer zones wouldn't have deterred Russia in 2022 (Americans in the invaded regions simply fled). Murray expects any settlement to involve Ukraine ceding eastern territory but stresses this is far harder for actual Ukrainians (hundreds of thousands of citizens who don't want to live under Putin) than for outside commentators glibly discussing it from New York — drawing on his own interviews with children who escaped Russian-occupied territory, describing forced Russification schooling and an estimated 20,000 Ukrainian children abducted into Russia (a story he believes is underreported partly because Ukraine itself recognized publicizing it would turn the children into a bargaining chip, as happened with Israeli hostages).

On negotiating peace, Murray offers a structural critique: rushed diplomacy tends to pressure whichever party can actually be pressured (Zelensky, easily; Putin, much less so), risking outcomes that reward the aggressor. He and Lex debate whether "victory in sight" is itself often an illusion that prevents timely negotiation (citing the missed opportunities after Ukraine's spring 2022 and fall 2022 battlefield successes), with Murray noting that armies, once amassed, generate their own momentum toward continued use. Both agree no durable peace guarantee is crediblewithout NATO membership (which Murray considers politically impossible), and Murray insists on stating plainly that Putin bears full responsibility for launching the invasion regardless of NATO-expansion context, using the framing that provocation explains but never justifies aggression.

On October 7th, Murray narrates the attack's scale and coordination (a Hamas-Hezbollah pincer plan disrupted mainly by Hamas's own operational-security distrust of Hezbollah communication channels) and attributes Israel's catastrophic intelligence failure to "the conception" — a years-long assumption that Hamas leadership, having grown personally wealthy and corrupt, had deprioritized its founding ideology — compounded by battlefield confusion (Hamas fighters wearing stolen IDF uniforms, impersonating police) that delayed army response for hours in some communities. He describes Hamas's governing charter and end-times rhetoric as evidence its antisemitism is explicitly religious as well as political, and stresses that many communities attacked (kibbutzim, the Nova festival) were disproportionately populated by Israeli peace activists — citing Vivian Silver, who drove Gazan children to Israeli hospitals for years and was burned alive in her home — as a bitter irony central to his account. He argues the "proportionality" standard critics invoke (matching Israeli casualties to Gazan ones) has no basis in the laws of war, and that Hamas's practice of embedding military infrastructure in hospitals, mosques, schools, and an extensive tunnel network (built, per his interviews, explicitly to shelter fighters and hostages, not civilians) constitutes a deliberate "two-for-one" exploitation of humanitarian law that manufactures apparent Israeli war crimes. He rejects "occupation"/"open-air prison" framings of pre-October 7th Gaza, noting expanding labor access through Israeli crossings and a stalled "normalization" process that collapsed after it was revealed that detailed house-by-house attack maps used on October 7th came from Gazan workers who had been employed inside those same Israeli communities.

On Hamas's governance, Murray details systemic corruption (Hamas leaders dying billionaires while funds meant for Gaza's development went to military infrastructure) and argues Hamas had 18 years of essentially unchallenged rule (following its violent 2007 purge of Fatah) to build a functioning Palestinian statelet and instead used the time to radicalize a generation and construct the infrastructure for October 7th — a choice he holds the Gazan electorate partially, though not exclusively, responsible for. He cites an audio recording of a Hamas fighter phoning his family to boast of killing ten Jews, and the absence of any Gazan bystander intervention (or protests against Hamas anywhere in the West, including New York's October 8th anti-Israel demonstration), as evidence of something beyond mere desperation or war-time dehumanization — he insists on the word "evil" specifically for what happened at the Nova festival, while Lex pushes back that channeling evil doesn't necessarily make the individual person purely evil, a disagreement they leave unresolved.

On Netanyahu, Murray argues he is "certainly not evil" and that the disproportionate global fixation on him personally (versus other wartime leaders) is itself diagnostic — echoing his earlier point about pressuring only those who can be pressured (Hamas, Hezbollah, and Iran's leadership are simply unreachable by moral appeal, while Netanyahu, as an elected leader in a democracy, is the only actor protesters and diplomats can meaningfully target). He steelmans criticism of Netanyahu (October 7th happened on his watch, akin to Golda Meir's political reckoning after the Yom Kippur War; the pre-war judicial-reform crisis may have signaled Israeli weakness to Sinwar) while arguing any Israeli leader would have responded similarly to the attack, and credits Netanyahu's government with substantial (not complete) success on both stated war aims — returning most hostages and severely degrading Hamas and Hezbollah's leadership — while conceding the war is not yet a "victory."

On antisemitism, Murray leans on Vasily Grossman's line from Life and Fate — "tell me what you accuse the Jews of, and I'll tell you what you're guilty of" — arguing antisemitic accusation is best understood as psychological projection (Iran calling Israel colonialist while running its own regional proxy network; Hamas supporters calling Israel indiscriminate while October 7th was exactly that), and extends this into a theory of why post-October-7th Western reaction was so lopsided: a generation raised to believe their own societies bear unresolvable, unforgivable "original sins" (colonialism, slavery, white supremacy) found in anti-Israel activism a displaceable, resolvable target for that free-floating guilt. He calls antisemitism "the lowest-grade explanation" for complex problems — a simple, small, historically convenient scapegoat — while noting Jewish prominence in certain fields (science, finance, the arts) invites zero-sum resentment from people looking for someone to blame for their own failures.

On Iran, Murray frames the 1979 revolution (opening his book with the flight bringing Khomeini from Paris to Tehran, which he calls one of the two worst journeys of the 20th century alongside Lenin's train to Petrograd) as installing "Khomeinism" — a specific, still-active brand of radical Shi'ite fanaticism whose persistence he attributes to raw, demonstrated brutality (the 2009 Green Revolution's suppression via the Basij militia) rather than genuine popular consent, arguing Western observers chronically underestimate how far real ideological fanaticism (which he links to historical antecedents like Spanish Falangist "Viva la Muerte" chants) can go, and citing "we love death more than you love life" as the defining rhetorical marker of the "death cult" mindset his book is built around.

Asked for interview advice ahead of Lex's planned conversations with Putin and possibly Netanyahu, Murray argues against adversarial "gotcha" questioning (quoting Robin Day: "if you think the person is a liar, get them to reveal that they're a liar, don't just call them one") and insists that outside pressure to ask "the dumb question" mistakes performative confrontation for actual revelation; he encourages Lex not to be deterred by online hostility, invoking Churchill's eulogy for Chamberlain — that the only real guide is one's own conscience and rectitude, since it's not given to people to foresee how history will judge any given moment. Asked what gives him hope, Murray points to conversations with young students (in Kyiv, despite the war) as his most consistent source of encouragement, and closes reflecting that war, though traumatic, strips away pretense and produces a strange clarity and intimacy — "you see the very, very best of people and the very worst, and they're beside each other" — which is why soldiers who are destroyed by war often also miss it.

Excerpts

On why respect for someone "from the realm of war" matters in diplomatic encounters:

“When a man comes from the realm of war into the realm of peace, the people in the realm of peace should have some respect or at least concession that the other man has come from the realm of war... if you are sitting in a political environment where you talk about people being destroyed and decimated... to a man for whom none of that is metaphorical, I think that's extremely hard to accept.”

On why Hamas's tunnel network reveals its true priorities:

“When they build their tunnels, they do so in order their tunnels are used by them, Hamas, to store their weaponry, to secure their fighters, and to hold hostages. They do not build their underground tunnel networks for the safety of ordinary civilians avoiding aerial bombardment. Every difference in the world seems to me to exist between a country which does build bomb shelters for its citizens and a government which builds bomb shelters for its bombs.”

On antisemitism as psychological projection, via Vasily Grossman:

“Grossman's great insight is he says everywhere it tells you not about the Jews, but about the person making the claim... culminating in this phrase I've been trying to make popular, which is he says, 'Tell me what you accuse the Jews of, I'll tell you what you're guilty of.'”