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Podcasts/Lex Fridman Podcast/Barrett, Lisa Feldman

Barrett, Lisa Feldman

professor of psychology at Northeastern University; author of How Emotions Are Made and, at the time of recording, the forthcoming Seven and a Half Lessons About the Brain

Lisa Feldman Barrett: Counterintuitive Ideas About How the Brain Works

Lex Fridman Podcast · Oct 4, 2020

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Core ideas

Barrett argues the brain is fundamentally a prediction machine, not a passive stimulus-response device: sealed in the "dark, silent box" of the skull, it only ever receives effects (sense data) of causes it must infer, and it solves this inverse-inference problem by continuously simulating what happened last time in a similar situation, preparing the body and mind accordingly, and only updating ("learning") when incoming data violate the prediction — a strategy she argues is far more metabolically efficient than pure reaction, with true reflexes being cases where the stakes are too high to wait for confirmation. She traces this framework to sensory systems' likely evolutionary origin in predation (arguing, via the near-senseless lancelet/amphioxus as a proxy for a pre-vertebrate ancestor, that eyes, ears, and brains evolved in service of motor action once animals began deliberately eating each other, not for the purpose of conscious experience). She explicitly debunks the popular "triune brain" model — the idea of an inner "lizard brain" wrapped in a mammalian "limbic system" wrapped in a rational cerebral cortex — as having been known to be biologically false since the 1970s despite Carl Sagan popularizing it in the Pulitzer-winning The Dragons of Eden, and argues it survives because it lets people off the hook for bad behavior and lets society deny that emotion can itself be a source of wisdom.

On free will, Barrett distrusts her own strong intuition that she has it, but locates a scientifically defensible version in the brain's capacity for "conceptual combination" (recombining fragments of past experience into genuinely novel predictions) and, more substantively, in a person's ongoing ability to choose new experiences that reshape their internal model — summarized in a colleague's line that people are "continually cultivating their past as a means of controlling their future." She extends her "concept construction" framework (developed at length in How Emotions Are Made) to argue that emotions are not universal, hardwired circuits with fixed facial/physiological signatures, but variable instances the brain constructs from a population of past experiences to fit context — evidenced by her lab's cross-cultural fieldwork with the Hadza hunter-gatherers of Tanzania and by the total absence, across decades of research, of any single reliable biomarker for a given emotion. She likens emotion concepts to Darwin's insight that species categories are defined by functional variation rather than fixed essential features (the same argument extends to conceptual categories like money or citizenship, which unify physically dissimilar things purely by agreed-upon function), and to "ad hoc concepts" (e.g., "things that protect you from rain") that children as young as four months can already learn from verbal labeling.

A substantial section covers gender perception: a 1990s experience-sampling study found no actual difference in how much emotion men and women report feeling, yet both sexes believe women are more emotional — and, crucially, identical facial/body expressions get read as revealing a woman's inner state ("she's having an emotion") while the same expression from a man gets read as a reasonable response to the situation. Barrett connects this to her real-time predictions (published in a pre-debate NYT op-ed) about how Hillary Clinton would be perceived, and to Fridman's own admission of an unexamined negative reaction to Clinton. This leads into her core concept of "experiential blindness" — the idea that a brain lacking a relevant concept simply cannot perceive certain things (illustrated by newly-sighted formerly-blind patients, and by a blurry "blob" image that becomes visible only after seeing the clear version) — which she extends to real-world empathy failures: physicians under-prescribing pain medication to patients unlike themselves, and by extension the mutual empathy failure between BLM protesters and police officers, since building an accurate predictive model of an unfamiliar person's experience requires effortful, metabolically costly exploration of novel information.

This connects to Barrett's "body budget" (allostasis) framework: the brain's core function is predictively regulating bodily resources (glucose, salt, water, etc.) across many simultaneous "accounts," and depression/anxiety are, in her view, not separate from this — they are what a body budget running a chronic deficit or facing unpredictable circumstances feels like from the inside. She argues empathy for people unlike oneself is expensive precisely because it requires "spending" from an already depleted budget, and links current social/political polarization to a "perfect storm" of factors depleting the collective body budget simultaneously — poor sleep, poor diet, economic precarity (illustrated via Robert Reich's account of CEO-to-worker pay ratios rising from ~20x to ~300x), and social media's uniquely taxing ambiguity — concluding that curiosity and small acts of kindness are metabolically "deposits" that make sustained empathy possible, while stressing she personally has to consciously "fuel up" (via exercise and preparation) before deliberately empathizing with people whose views she finds difficult. The episode closes on romantic love and attachment (framed as an outgrowth of humans' evolved social dependence for regulating each other's nervous systems — loneliness, she notes, measurably shortens lifespan) and on meaning, which Barrett describes not as singular but as "a population of instances," varying day to day between making meaning, leaving the world slightly better, and simple immersive wonder at the physical world.

Excerpts

On why the "triune brain" narrative is both wrong and harmful:

“That idea... became very popular, was popularized by Carl Sagan in The Dragons of Eden, which won a Pulitzer Prize in 1977, when it was already known pretty much in evolutionary neuroscience that the whole narrative was a myth... it's the foundation of the law in most Western countries, it's the foundation of economic theory... it also, in addition to being wrong, lets people off the hook for nasty behavior, and it also suggests that emotions can't be a source of wisdom.”

On why empathy is metabolically costly, not just a matter of willingness:

“In order to have empathy for someone who is very much unlike you, you have to forage for information, you have to explore information that is novel to you and unexpected, and that's expensive... what does it mean for a brain to stop spending? A brain stops moving very much, stops moving the body, and it stops learning — it just goes with its internal model.”

On why depression and anxiety are, in her framework, forms of body-budget crisis rather than separate phenomena:

“Depression, anxiety are just a way of being in the world — a way of being in the world when things aren't quite right with your predictions... when your brain is running a deficit in your body budget, you have some kind of metabolic imbalance, you experience that as discomfort, you experience that as distress.”